POI Rankings 2008-2009
CHSSA Area 1
2008-2009
Team Rankings
1. James Logan TA (Tony Thaweethai & Niraj Asthana) 27.45
1. Lynbrook TS (Belinda Tang & Narayan Subramanian) 27.45
3. Leland OS (Robert Ott & Michael Song) 22.2
4. Lynbrook KU (Vikram Kanth & Rohit Unni) 22
5. Bellarmine LP (Evan Larson & Anthony Paranzino) 18.55
6. Leland NK (Taman Narayan & Ryan Kuo) 17.65
7. Lynbrook MB (Aditya Majumdar & Indranil Bora) 16.5
8. Bentley GR (Geoffrey Gardner & David Romero) 16.3
9. Irvington PA (Sahil Pandya & Rohan Agarwal) 15.4
10. CLASH RJ (Jorgen Rehn & Stefan Jorgensen) 15
11. Santa Rosa PS (Aaron Peterson & Dane Shikman) 14.1
12. Leland RR (Aparna Ramanan & Ayushi Roy) 12.8
13. CLASH CY (Nathaniel Clark & Wonchan Yi) 12.75
13. Saratoga AS (Adeeti Aggarwal & Connie Shang) 12.75
15. Lynbrook NM (Tejas Navaratna & Ritik Malhotra) 12.7
16. Lynbrook YJ (Vincent Yu & Aakriti Jain) 12
16. Monte Vista ZP (Alex Zou & Andrew Prayogo) 12
18. Lynbrook LJ (Alice Lin & Chinmay Jaju) 11.8
19. Athenian MM (Daniel Mather & Tyler Mullen) 11.75
20. Lowell LC (Jonathan Leigh & Stephanie Cheung) 10.9
20. Santa Rosa RK (Graciela Rasor & Katharine Konietzko) 10.9
22. Bishop O’Dowd AA (Wolfgang Alders & Carey Appeldorn) 10.85
22. Lowell QA (Brian Qiu & Jason Alafgani) 10.85
22. San Ramon Valley GO (Ashwin Gandhi & Chris Overstreet) 10.85
25. Lowell LL (Roy Lee & Scott Lee) 10.75
25. Monte Vista HT (Tyler House & Jenny Ting) 10.75
27. Bentley FM (Erica Furer & Annie McKenna) 9.8
28. St. Francis HN (Roxanna Haghighat & Rujata Nandgankar) 8.85
29. Santa Rosa VM (Ian Vonseggern & Lyle Mills) 8.15
30. Bishop O’Dowd MW (Jonah Merris & Perrin Wright) 8
30. James Logan CM (Erik Camacho & Gurjot Mattu) 8
32. Windsor CL (Jakob Christensen & Cameron Lane) 7.9
33. Lynbrook RS (Artem Raskin & Carl Shan) 7.85
34. Analy NB (Mariah Noah & Mica Burnes) 7.8
34. Athenian GB (Lorien Giles & Michelle Bromberg) 7.8
(35) Athenian GH (Lorien Giles & James Harding) 7.5
35. Head Royce RG (Stephen Roan & Hugh Green) 7
35. Monte Vista WL (Garrett Weiss & Isaac Liang) 7
35. San Ramon Valley RF (Arian Rezazadeh & Jake Friedler) 7
38. Windsor MA (Brenda Nelson & Jessa Allen) 6.9
39. Bishop O’Dowd GD (Ryan Gozinsky-Irwin & Kate Drew) 6.85
39. Los Gatos VS (Robert Van Unen & Stanford Stickney) 6.85
39. Saratoga AJ (Karthik Annamalai & Rishabh Jethanandani) 6.85
42. Analy DH (Aman Desai & Cameron Holl) 6.5
(42). Bellarmine PB (Anthony Paranzino & Jacob Baker) 6
(42). Bentley BM (Logan Brog & Annie McKenna) 6
42. Cupertino MK (Akaash Mungale & Anthony Kao) 6
(42). James Logan TG (Tony Thaweethai & Inder Grewal) 6
42. Leland WK (Albert Wu & Wooju Kim) 6
42. MVLA SG (Rylan Schaeffer & Andrew Gilley) 6
46. Irvington AL (Ashwin Aravind & David Lau) 5.9
47. Bentley AC (Osmund Allenberg & Jeanine Chong) 5
47. Sonoma CS (Diego Canales & Percy Stubbs) 5
47. Valley Christian OT (Adam Obereiner & Jessica Terry) 5
50. Analy TB (Ryan Taylor-Davis & Mike Barela) 4
50. Analy AW (Gordon Allen & Gabriel Wheaton) 4
50. Athenian HW (James Harding & Ben Wang) 4
50. Irvington DH (Catherine Dinh & Tien Ho) 4
(50). James Logan CS (Erik Camacho & Jeremy Sharma) 4
50. James Logan HM (Christine Hu & Kyle Most) 4
(50). James Logan SH (Jeremy Sharma & Christine Hu) 4
50. Leland SD (Jeanie So & Rachel Deghuee) 4
50. Lowell PL (Natalia Powers-Riggs & Robert Lee) 4
(50). Lowell LA (Jonathan Leigh & Jason Alafgani) 4
50. Saratoga MV (Vijay Menon & Abhishek Venkataramana) 4
58. Bellarmine CB (Aaron Chung & David Byrd) 3
58. Bellarmine TS (James Thomas & Vijay Singh) 3
58. Bellarmine BS (Jacob Baker & Remi Sun) 3
58. Bishop O’Dowd CM (Graham Chapman & Adam Murray) 3
(58). CLASH LJ (Connor Landgraf & Stefan Jorgensen) 3
58. Gunn KK (Pamudh Kariyawasam & Justin Kahn) 3
(58). James Logan CG (Erik Camacho & Inder Grewal) 3
58. Los Gatos KZ (Alina Kurland & Amy Zhang) 3
(58). MVLA SS (Rylan Schaeffer & Akshay Shrivastava) 3
58. Santa Rosa RG (Alan Ramey & ? Gardner-Heart) 3
65. Athenian KJ (David Kramer & Evan Johnson) 2
65. Livermore HD (Julie Herman & Mary Kate Dec) 2
65. Livermore MF (Nicole McCaffrey & Alex Frogner) 2
65. Maria Carillo SL (Will Singleton & Yiren Lu) 2
65. Santa Rosa BP (Tajai Britten & Steven Power) 2
65. Windsor AS (Helaine St. Amant & Emma Seche) 2
65. Windsor BB (Kara Boatwright & Jennifer Boatwright) 2
65. Windsor GF (Jenny Giang & Amy Jeffrey) 2
Club Rankings
1. Lynbrook 124
2. Leland 68
3. James Logan 59
4. Lowell 41
5. Santa Rosa 40
6. Bentley 39
7. Athenian 34.5
8. Bellarmine 34
9. CLASH 31
10. Monte Vista 30
11. Bishop O’Dowd 29
12. Irvington 27
13. Saratoga 24
14. Analy 22.5
15. Windsor 21
16. San Ramon Valley 18
17. Los Gatos 10
18. MVLA 9
19. St. Francis 9
20. Head Royce 7
21. Cupertino 6
22. Sonoma 5
23. Valley Christian 5
24. Livermore 4
25. Gunn 3
26. Maria Carrillo 2
Individual Rankings (top 10)
1. Tony Thaweethai (James Logan) 29.25
2. Belinda Tang (Lynbrook) 27.45
2. Narayan Subramanian (Lynbrook) 27.45
2. Niraj Asthana (James Logan) 27.45
5. Anthony Paranzino (Bellarmine) 22.25
6. Robert Ott (Leland) 22.2
6. Michael Song (Leland) 22.2
8. Vikram Kanth (Lynbrook) 22
8. Rohit Unni (Lynbrook) 22
10. Evan Larson (Bellarmine) 18.55
43 Comments to POI Rankings 2008-2009
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What does it mean if there are multiple numbers by the team name?
tiebreakers eg points including 3rd tourney, then fourth etc
How come some people only have one number next to them?
they either don’t need the tiebreakers or don’t have more than two tourneys making tiebreakers impossible
but i thought point were based off of top 2 tourneys?
points are based of the two personal bests for each team. If the teams are tied, POI counts their points for the third best tournament, if still tied then fourth, and so on, until one team runs out of tournaments and loses the tiebreaker.
Wow this scale is amazingly off. you are missing teams from that list for sure.
Also, many partner changes happen over the course of the year so it may also be wise to make an individual list, that would be interesting.
The scale includes people from CFL and GGSA that broke at Stanford/Logan/SCU1/SCU2 or had a winning record at league/state quals and made it to the top 50 based on points, so it obviously doesn’t include any teams that don not meet these conditions. Other than that, POI didn’t leave out any teams that qualified, if there was a mistake, could you indicate the specific team we missed?
Partner changes are definitely a problem and left some great debaters out of the list (Rylan Schaeffer and Jacob Baker come to mind), so we will figure out a way to adjust for this in the future. Realize that is is just a rough draft.
Just looking over the list i noticed several teams that didn’t get credit for the tournaments they went to because the scores weren’t combined i guess. But besides that the ranking system should include more tournaments besides the listed ones. Especially the larger tournaments such as DVC and UOP. I’m not really sure if it’s fair to give the same amount of points for a tournament like SCU Spring when it’s a lot smaller and overlook other larger tournaments.
SCU2 smallness is accounted for in the rankings based on the percentile principle described in the rankings proposal. Basically, we calculate the percentile of a team at SCU2 and give it as many points as this percentile would gave gotten it at Logan. This means that size is irrelevant, because breaking at SCU2 (8 out of 25) is roughly equivalent to breaking at Logan (32 out of 100) and sems or SCU2 is about the same as octas at Logan. Since SCU2 has less outrounds, it does not award as many points as the bigger tournaments. Had SCU2 broken a different percentile of people than SCU1/Stanford/Logan (which all break top 1/3) its points would have been adjusted appropriately.
POI definitely would like to include UOP and DVC in the future. Unfortunately, so far, despite browsing the internet and contacting the tournament directors, we were not able to recover the full results of either tourney.
If you know any specific teams left out, post them, and we will add them.
the team from logan Erik Camacho & Jeremy Sharma. their names are listed twice one for breaking at SCU and the other for a 3-1 record in the GGSA league
The point scale seems to be a little interesting. a 3-1 record gets a team 3 points while a 4-0 record is worth 7 points. it seems a unfair to give a team who picked up one more ballot an additional 4 points for that. and i’d also like to say thanks to the owners of the site for putting this together. HS parli debate isn’t very popular out side of the west coast and to have a whole website (even with it’s minor flaws and all) is still really appreciated.SO thanks you. But back to the point system, it may be interesting to implement a bonus system, let’s say a team is 1st seed in a tournament, the points they get for breaking should be doubled, so instead of 4 for breaking that team would get 8 points. And something else that would make this scale more interesting would be to award bonus points to any teams who were able to defeat the top ranked team. So if a team was able to beat the logan or lynbrook team, that team should get an additional (insert bonus points here) to their overall score to increase their rank. Thanks for your dedication to HS Parli debate.
It’s funny that the of the 3 teams with bonus points, only one is in the top 10 while the other 2 from Logan and Athenian are very far down the list
This is bullshit yo. Paranzino and Larson those hot doggies belong at the top. They won hella bling mang.
Evan and Tony are obviously amazing debaters (I haven’t seen Evan debate, but I faced Tony at squals last year and he was very good), but based off records alone, it seems pretty evident that both #1 teams have been more successful.
Bell PL
didn’t place at Milpitas
3rd at squals
4th at state
Logan TA
1st at Logan
1st at squals
7th at state
Lynbrook TS
8th at SCU
1st at squals
1st at state (beating Bell in a head-to-head match-up)
Also, don’t swear
Bellarmine KY (Kothari/Yakushev) had two tournaments of 3-1 at league. I faced them and they destroyed us. Why aren’t they on the list?
ohh…nevermind
because 3-1 is weak on the ratings…
If you click on “points by tournaments” you can see a full list of people that have at least some POI points and Bell KY is ranked #71 on there.
We do agree that POI rankings don’t necessarily reflect one’s skill, but that’s a problem that can’t really be solved. If a good team either gets unlucky and never goes big or doesn’t attend too many tourneys (both of which is the case w/ Bell KY), their record would not reflect how good they really are, but the rankings can only measure competitive success, not the actual debating skills.
maybe in the future you can find a way to factor in win percentage and tournament difficulty.
The problem with calculating win ratios is that some prelim results aren’t available.
We’ve attempted to factor in tournament difficulty by weighing different tournaments, but obviously it’s not perfect. If you have any suggestions, let us know!
I think as for the year, it’s safe to say that the rankings aren’t really accurate. but i’m sure by next year that there can be a good system.For starters, we need to work on gathering prelim records from tournaments. then and only then can we make something accurate.
1. Tony Thaweethai (James Logan) 31, 37
2. Niraj Asthana (James Logan) 31, 34
3. Belinda Tang (Lynbrook) 31
3. Narayan Subramanian (Lynbrook) 31
5. Anthony Paranzino (Bellarmine) 27, 34, 40
6. Vikram Kanth (Lynbrook) 25, 31, 36, 39
7. Rohit Unni (Lynbrook) 25, 31, 36
8. Taman Narayan (Leland) 23, 26, 29
8. Ryan Kuo (Leland) 23, 26, 29
10. Robert Ott (Leland) 23, 26
10. Michael Song (Leland) 23, 26
12. Evan Larson (Bellarmine) 23
13. Nathaniel Clark (CLASH) 21, 24
13. Wonchan Yi (CLASH) 21, 24
15. Aparna Ramanan (Leland) 21
15. Ayushi Roy (Leland) 21
17. Annie McKenna (Bentley) 20, 26, 30
P.S. individual rankings, best 3 tournaments, same points per tournament as POI
Due to rule changes (see postscripts under Rankings System), POI Rankings have been updated.
This season, 102 teams were ranked. This is twice as many as in 07-08 (07-08 rankings are forthcoming).
This is coming along pretty well, but there are still a few flaws with the system. for example going 4-0 at 2 league tournaments places you in the top 20? That just seems interesting considering league tournaments are notorious for having questionable judging and the difficulty of rounds is more arbitrary than a tournament.In order to get comparable points at an actual tournament, you would have to break, then win 2 elimination rounds. I’m not going to speak in absolutes, but it seems harder to break at a tournament and win 2 elimination rounds than to go 4-0 at a league tournament. Or maybe it’s just me.
Dear Barack,
First, invitationals don’t seem to have much better judges – for the most part, both leagues and invites are judged by parents. Granted, invites have some flow judges, but leagues often have panels in prelims which partially offsets the arbitrary nature of lay judges.
Second, a team which is 4-0 in first 4 rounds of Stanford would likely go 5-1 going into elims, since they’d be power-matched against teams of their caliber in rounds 5 and 6, so it’s a 50/50 both times. A 5-1 would have been in top 13 seeds this past season. Top 16 (octafinalists)get 6 points and top 8 (quarters) get 8 points, so it seems reasonable that top 13 would get 7.
A bigger problem with leagues is that they favor GGSA over CFL. GGSA has 4 leagues (counting Windsor,)whereas CFL had 3 in 08-09 and might have less in the coming season.
Actually, if the above is true, and a debater of a top13@Stanford caliber gets the same points at league and Stanford, then league points should be decreased since Stanford is bigger.
4-0 is now worth 6 points and Windsor tournament points have been decreased accordingly (see Rankings System). Thanks for the heads up.
And this is the first attempt to rank tournament strength. It’s very inaccurate, so we are not putting it as a separate post, but it’s a start. We add the points (capped at best two tournaments, excluding the tournament ranked) of all Area 1 teams in elims of a tournament and divide this by the number of Area 1 teams that broke. This method favors smaller tournaments and we haven’t figured out a way to account for this yet.
Rank-Tournament-average points of Area 1 outround participant-total points of Area 1 outround participants- # of outround participants from Area 1- total # of outround participants
1. SCU2 8.7 61/7/8
2. SCU1 8.0 96/12/16
3. Stanford 6.9 145/21/32
4. Logan 6.4 135/21/32
5. UoP 5.8 29/5/16
*updated to include Leigh and Alafgani
We’ve also compiled individual rankings using the system “alternative rankings” used above (only we counted 4-0 as 6 points in this one)
Top 50
1. Tony Thaweethai (James Logan) 31, 37
2. Niraj Asthana (James Logan) 31, 34
3. Narayan Subramanian (Lynbrook) 31
3. Belinda Tang (Lynbrook) 31
5. Anthony Paranzino (Bellarmine) 26, 32, 38
6. Vikram Kanth (Lynbrook) 24, 30, 35, 38
7. Rohit Unni (Lynbrook) 24, 30, 35
8. Robert Ott (Leland) 23, 26
8. Michael Song (Leland) 23, 26
10. Evan Larson (Bellarmine) 23
11. Ryan Kuo (Leland) 22, 25, 28
11. Taman Narayan (Leland) 22, 25, 28
13. Nathaniel Clark (CLASH) 20, 23
13. Wonchan Yi (CLASH) 20, 23
15. Aparna Ramanan (Leland) 20
15. Ayushi Roy (Leland) 20
17. James Harding (Athenian) 18.5, 21.5
18. Annie McKenna (Bentley) 18, 24, 28
19. Indranil Bora (Lynbrook) 18, 22, 25
19. Aditya Majumdar (Lynbrook) 18, 22, 25
21. Erica Furer (Bentley) 18, 22
22. Geoffrey Gardner (Bentley) 18, 21, 24, 27
23. David Romero (Bentley) 18, 21, 24
24. Jason Alafgani (Lowell) 18, 21
25. Stefan Jorgensen (CLASH) 18
25. Rohan Agarwal (Irvington) 18
25. Sahil Pandya (Irvington) 18
25. Alex Zou (Monte Vista) 18
29. Aaron Peterson (Santa Rosa) 17, 20, 23, 25
29. Dane Shikman (Santa Rosa) 17, 20, 23, 25
31. Ritik Malhotra (Lynbrook) 17, 20
31. Tejas Navaratna (Lynbrook) 17, 20
33. Jonah Merris (Bishop O’Dowd) 17
33. Perrin Wright (Bishop O’Dowd) 17
35. Brian Qiu (Lowell) 17
35. Tyler House (Monte Vista) 17
35. Jenny Ting (Monte Vista) 17
35. Adeeti Aggarwal (Saratoga) 17
35. Connie Shang (Saratoga) 17
40. Daniel Mather (Athenian) 16, 19, 22
41. Lorien Giles (Athenian) 16
41. Jonathan Leigh (Lowell) 16
43. Remi Sun (Bellarmine) 15
43. Logan Brog (Bentley) 15
43. Jorgen Rehn (CLASH) 15
43. Alice Lin (Lynbrook) 15
43. Vincent Yu (Lynbrook) 15
43. Aakriti Jain (Lynbrook) 15
43. Andrew Prayogo (Monte Vista) 15
43. Katharine Konietzko (Santa Rosa) 15
43. Graciela Rasor (Santa Rosa) 15
43. Emma Seche (Windsor) 15
43. Helaine St. Amant (Windsor) 15
This system is rather confusing to me. I was looking over results and am puzzled as to why they people from windsor at #42 have 15 points if going 4-0 2 times is only worth 12. i don’t mean to target people, but they were just on the bottom of the list so i started there.
Also, maybe having a standardized system for the points at invitationals should be used. Like 4 dubs 6 octas 8 quaters 10 sems 12 F 13 C.
Okay sorry for being unclear
When we said we are using “the system alternative rankings used above” we were referring to a comment above, posted under the name “alternative rankings.”
It red:
“P.S. individual rankings, best 3 tournaments, same points per tournament as POI”
and we assume was a response to a comment by Jane Doe which red
“Also, many partner changes happen over the course of the year so it may also be wise to make an individual list, that would be interesting.”
The reason individual rankings use best 3 tournaments as opposed to best 2, like the official team rankings do is because it’s easier for a debater to attend 3 tournaments total than it is to attend 3 tournaments as part of the same team.
The Windsor girls went 4-0, 4-0, 3-1. Their best two tourneys add up to 12, best 3 add up to 15.
also, UOP had 49 entries not 29
“Also, maybe having a standardized system for the points at invitationals should be used. Like 4 dubs 6 octas 8 quaters 10 sems 12 F 13 C.”
That wouldn’t work that well. Stanford has 4 times more teams than SCU2, so the people that won Stanford should have way more points than SCU2 champions. SCU1 octafinalists just need to break, whereas Logan octafinalists need to break and then win a doubles round. And so on. Points should be tied to the size of the tournament.
“also, UOP had 49 entries not 29″
29 isnt field size, it’s the total number of points of all it’s outround participants. It’s then divided by the number of outround participants to find the average strength of a team in elims of a given tourney.
The explanations aren’t very clear yet, which is why we put those rankings in the comments for now – it’s experimental. If it works, we’ll make it official/have better explanations.
Barack Obama approves this objective.
^As does Sarah Palin.
Adieu.
So do I.
No one listens to you!But thanks for the support.
So much for bipartisanship.
It’s all good. As long as i have Palin not all is lost =D. *Barack Obama approves this message.
A totally random piece of trivia
Tanayott Thaweethai and Narayan Subramanian, the two most successful debaters of this season have never faced each other this year. However back in 2005, in the very beginning of their careers, they debated in the final round of Wilcox (the biggest novice division at a tournament in that era), with Narayan picking up over Tony on a 3-0 in what was by all accounts an epic round. The round began with the Gov defining the resolution “Impeach Bush” to refer to Jeb Bush, then the governor of Florida, and continued in like fashion.
Aplogies to Erik Camacho, who was left out from “individual rankings” post above. Here’s the correct list:
1. Tony Thaweethai (James Logan) 31, 37
2. Niraj Asthana (James Logan) 31, 34
3. Narayan Subramanian (Lynbrook) 31
3. Belinda Tang (Lynbrook) 31
5. Anthony Paranzino (Bellarmine) 26, 32, 38
6. Vikram Kanth (Lynbrook) 24, 30, 35, 38
7. Rohit Unni (Lynbrook) 24, 30, 35
8. Robert Ott (Leland) 23, 26
8. Michael Song (Leland) 23, 26
10. Evan Larson (Bellarmine) 23
11. Ryan Kuo (Leland) 22, 25, 28
11. Taman Narayan (Leland) 22, 25, 28
13. Nathaniel Clark (CLASH) 20, 23
13. Wonchan Yi (CLASH) 20, 23
15. Aparna Ramanan (Leland) 20
15. Ayushi Roy (Leland) 20
17. James Harding (Athenian) 18.5, 21.5
18. Annie McKenna (Bentley) 18, 24, 28
19. Indranil Bora (Lynbrook) 18, 22, 25
19. Aditya Majumdar (Lynbrook) 18, 22, 25
21. Erica Furer (Bentley) 18, 22
22. Geoffrey Gardner (Bentley) 18, 21, 24, 27
23. David Romero (Bentley) 18, 21, 24
24. Jason Alafgani (Lowell) 18, 21
25. Stefan Jorgensen (CLASH) 18
25. Rohan Agarwal (Irvington) 18
25. Sahil Pandya (Irvington) 18
25. Alex Zou (Monte Vista) 18
29. Aaron Peterson (Santa Rosa) 17, 20, 23, 25
29. Dane Shikman (Santa Rosa) 17, 20, 23, 25
31. Ritik Malhotra (Lynbrook) 17, 20
31. Tejas Navaratna (Lynbrook) 17, 20
33. Jonah Merris (Bishop O’Dowd) 17
33. Perrin Wright (Bishop O’Dowd) 17
35. Brian Qiu (Lowell) 17
35. Tyler House (Monte Vista) 17
35. Jenny Ting (Monte Vista) 17
35. Adeeti Aggarwal (Saratoga) 17
35. Connie Shang (Saratoga) 17
40. Daniel Mather (Athenian) 16, 19, 22
41. Lorien Giles (Athenian) 16
41. Jonathan Leigh (Lowell) 16
43. Erik Camacho (James Logan) 15, 18, 21
44. Remi Sun (Bellarmine) 15
44. Logan Brog (Bentley) 15
44. Jorgen Rehn (CLASH) 15
44. Alice Lin (Lynbrook) 15
44. Vincent Yu (Lynbrook) 15
44. Aakriti Jain (Lynbrook) 15
44. Andrew Prayogo (Monte Vista) 15
44. Katharine Konietzko (Santa Rosa) 15
44. Graciela Rasor (Santa Rosa) 15
44. Emma Seche (Windsor) 15
44. Helaine St. Amant (Windsor) 15